Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II

Charlie Rose: Welcome to the broadcast. Tonight from Washington, a conversation with King Abdullah II of Jordan. He met with Secretary of State Colin Powell yesterday. And tomorrow he will meet with President Bush. His visit to Washington coincides with the visit of Israel's prime minister, Ariel Sharon. King Abdullah succeeded his father, King Hussein, in 1999. I am pleased to have him on this programme for the second time. Your Majesty, we have news today that there has been another suicide bombing in Israel. Hamas has taken credit. What does that say about what is going on today after all that has taken place in the last month?

King Abdullah: Well, it basically says, ''Unless we address the political aspects of the situation, until we get to the end-game, which is a Palestinian-viable state and peace and security for the Israelis, terrorists are going to continue to do what they've just done.''

We watched the incursion of the Israeli army going into the West Bank, and I said to our friends in Israel, “For each Palestinian that you kill or wound, you're going to breed another hundred unless you solve the political problem.” At the end of the day, people under occupation- I don't condone the bombing. We're completely against it. But, if we just keep this at the security level, violence will continue and we'll never be able to get out of the impasse.

Charlie Rose: There is nothing that you think - other than a peace settlement - that will stop the suicide bombings?

King Abdullah: Absolutely, because the reason people are willing to sacrifice their lives in such a useless manner and create so much destruction is because they have no hope. Give them hope. Give them a future. That is the best weapon we have to bringing peace and stability for all us - Israelis and Arabs alike.

Charlie Rose: And no amount of effort by you, Crown Prince Abdullah, President Arafat can stop them.

King Abdullah: Unfortunately, no. Because at the end of the day, here are people that…Unemployment is 75 per cent in the West Bank at the moment; 65 per cent of the Palestinians are living under the poverty line, less than $2 a day. They have no hope for a future. They don't believe that they can see themselves out of the mess that they're in. And so out of sheer frustration they're carrying out these activities.

Charlie Rose: But many people come forward to say that the people who are doing this – the suicide bombers themselves – are not the children of poverty. In many cases they are middle class or, in fact, they are not those who are desperate. They may be desperate, but not destitute.

King Abdullah: Well, I don't think it really depends on how much money you have in the pocket. At the end of the day, whether you are rich or you're poor, you want to have an ability to control your future. And, when you see that the life - your dignity and your future - has been taken out of your hands, I think this is what drives them over the edge. I don't agree with it. But, unless there is hope for them that there is going to be a future they can call their own, this is going to continue to happen no matter what we do.

Charlie Rose: Sharon says, apparently from news accounts - and he spoke last night to an organisation here in Washington – that he seems to see this as a longer-term process, that he wants to see the Palestinians reform – the Palestinian Authority, no Arafat, and a process over years.

King Abdullah: Won't work. It won't work. If you create that set of circumstances, you're going to have more terror, more extremism. Israelis would never be able to live in peace and security. And we're just going to continue. We've had an incremental approach since Oslo over the past nine years. And where has it gotten us? At the end of the day, the two sides – the Israeli people and the Palestinian people – want one thing from each other. The Palestinians want a state – a viable state – end of occupation so they can move forward. And the Israelis want to know that not only can they live in security and prosperity but they're accepted by the neighbourhood. Now, the Arabs have come to offer that to the Israelis. The Israelis must meet halfway to give the Palestinians their future. Otherwise we're just going to really fuel the situation. And we're just kidding ourselves if we think that this is going to solve the problem. More importantly, if America thinks that by having an incremental, long-term approach it's not going to bother the future of the United States, you're going to continue to be dragged into this mess unless there's a final solution. You have to get engaged. Otherwise, as we saw several weeks ago, what was an Israeli-Palestinian conflict was almost an Israeli-Arab conflict. And the United States would have to step in. So, it's in your best interest, as well as it is in ours, to solve this problem as quickly as possible.

Charlie Rose: You are meeting with a series of American leaders. And you'll meet with the president tomorrow.

King Abdullah: Yes, sir.

Charlie Rose: What will you tell the president?

King Abdullah: Well, what I told our friends here and I will also tell the president that he must understand that the relative calm that we have in the Middle East right now. In other words, things have calmed down slightly in the Middle East - there's a false sense of security. The reason why we have a slight calm, as opposed to three or four weeks ago, is because with the secretary of state's visit to the region and Arab leaders and Sharon coming to Washington there is an expectation, a slight hope. So, the anger, frustration and rage are still there. It's just a check. And, if we don't identify a process, the dam is going to break in a couple weeks time.

Charlie Rose: There is rage and desperation as well, as you said.

King Abdullah: Yes

Charlie Rose: And you think that they've reached a level of desperation - you said to me as we sat down - so that there's some optimism in that, that both sides

King Abdullah: At this moment there is because there a series of diplomatic activities to hopefully create a process to move forward. There is sometimes a tendency to Washington, "Oh, well, it's the Middle East. Got over the worst of it. The Arab countries seem to be better off." That's a fallacy. What it basically means is that everybody is now watching to see. If there's no progress, if there's no hope, the Arab anger is going come back even stronger.

Charlie Rose: I want to come to that in a moment. But let me talk about the American moment. Do you think that Secretary Powell and others, wherever they may be, understand the moment and that there is a necessity for the United States to put forward even a plan that it believes in so that everybody knows where it stands in terms of the imperative of the moment?

King Abdullah: I think from my discussions with the secretary of state yesterday he has a very clear vision of what needs to be done, but he can't do it by himself. He needs the support of all us to be able to do that. And I hope that that is part of the discussions that we'll have with the president tomorrow.

Charlie Rose: What is that? What needs to be done? For the Americans to do what?

King Abdullah: Well, again, looking at a process of getting- if we're going to get a conference together this summer, one that brings actually two tracks - the Israeli-Palestinian track that needs to be moved forward to give the hope as I've just mentioned.

But equally we cannot ignore the Arab-Israeli track. In other words, the Arab olive branch to the Israelis must also be carried on because I think you're reaching to the Israeli people. This endorsement by the Arab countries received 55, 52 per cent positive recognition by the Israeli public -- that the Arabs want to have peace with them. And so I think that we need to create a set of circumstances in the summer where -- I'm not saying ''as Madrid'' and I don't want to get into the details because they're still there for discussion. But an ability for the Israelis to deal with the Palestinians on one track and the Arab nations, as we see the Israeli-Palestinian track moving, also being able to deal with this.

Charlie Rose: Let be go back to history for a second, to Camp David. I mean, this is exactly what Barak thought and President Clinton thought was necessary at their moment in history. And it failed.

King Abdullah: Well, I think we're talking more of what happened in Madrid when everybody came. When Barak came to talk, he was mainly dealing with the Palestinian track by itself. But we need- we need to include the Arab track, but separate them at the same time, so it's an American umbrella, an international conference, whatever you want to do it. And two tracks working simultaneously.

Charlie Rose: I assume you're also saying to the Americans and the leaders- and you'll say this President Bush, ''You've got to settle this Israeli-Palestinian conflict if you want to go the distance on your fight against terrorism.''

King Abdullah: Absolutely. I think that the sadness of the recent events, not only the suffering of what's happened to the Palestinians, is that we in the league against extremism and terror, the coalition to fight terrorism and extremism around the world, have really been stopped in our tracks because this - or the problems between Israelis and Palestinians - have sidetracked us from the 11th-of-September campaign. And Jordan being sort of in the forefront - as with other moderate countries - in dealing with extremism, we've been put into check. And we can't move forward until this problem is solved. And so, if you look at the American interest and policy and your security in the long term, what is happening between the Israelis and the Palestinians is really hurting your chances of wining this campaign.

Charlie Rose: Prime Minister Sharon is saying to them something different. He is saying, ''My fight against the Palestinians is the same fight against terrorism that you're fighting on a larger scale.''

King Abdullah: But it's completely two different things because in America on September 11th, you were innocent victims. In the West Bank, Israel is occupying a people who have been occupied for 35 years, that have no ability or dignity or power to be able to decide their future. I've also heard analogies that what is going on in the West Bank is similar to what you're doing in Afghanistan. That's completely the opposite. In Afghanistan, the Americans went in to help the Afghan people get rid of the yoke of the Taliban. What we have between Israelis and the Palestinians is occupation. And it's unfortunate that that type of language is being used to play on American emotions, to sort of make people feel that what the Israelis are going through, what the Americans are going through. It's two separate issues. And it's sad that it's being portrayed in this light.

Charlie Rose: I hear you talking about two tracks. One is at this ministerial level there'll be a conference involving Arabs and Israelis and no Arafat, but representatives of the Palestinian Authority will be there. And they'll work on the economic and political issues. At the same time, there's got to be another track that's taking place. You believe, though, that a -- that what has happened in the last-- in what's called "intifada II" has made it necessary to go to a final settlement.

King Abdullah: You have to because, if you don't, you're going to have intifada III. And it's intifada III that I think is the major concern to all of us. This has been a nation cry for independence. And it has to be dealt with. As I said, you know, if we keep pushing the problem away, you as Americans are going to continue to be dragged into it. And you're going to continue to pay the price for it. So, you know, it's in your vested interest as much as in mine for us to solve the problem so we can get on with our lives and look after a people and have peace and prosperity for all of us in the region.

Charlie Rose: When this began to happen, you – in a relatively new term, having succeeded your father in 1999 – were fully in the throes of trying to modernise Jordan, trying to bring economic prosperity.

King Abdullah: Yes.

Charlie Rose: To your country.

King Abdullah: Yes, yes.

Charlie Rose: Has this stopped because of this war?

King Abdullah: It hasn't stopped. It's been dramatically slowed down. We're actually the only country in the region that has achieved 4.2 per cent growth.

Charlie Rose: That's good anywhere.

King Abdullah: All the Arab countries, as well. The other countries are 2.1, and I think Israel is registering negative growth. So, this situation is hurting everybody. Because we have a clear economic-social reform programme, we're making it. We're succeeding. But the international -- I think it was the IMF and the World Bank -- has said that the present conflict is costing all of us at least 1 per cent in natural growth in the region.

Charlie Rose: So, your growth is down to 3 perhaps.

King Abdullah: Well, it should. No, in other words, our 4.2 should be up to 5-something. And it's hurting everybody. So, we've all been affected. And, at the end of the day, it's the people who are suffering. It hurts us because it doesn't allow us to get food on the table and to move on education and health, which has been sort of at the core of our reform programme. I mean, we're still moving in the right direction. But, my goodness, where we would be if it wasn't for this conflict?

Charlie Rose: Do you fear destabilisation, though, if this conflict is not stopped?

King Abdullah: I fear destabilisation for the whole region.

Charlie Rose: That every regime will be threatened, whether it's Saudi Arabia or it's Jordan, or whether it's Egypt, or whether it's…?

King Abdullah: Israel.

Charlie Rose: Israel.

King Abdullah: We're all in this together. It's going to hurt all of us.

Charlie Rose: To the extent of chaos and losing the [crosstalk] that you have.

King Abdullah: Yes, yes. Well, Jordan has been through thick and thin over our many decades so I think we're actually slightly more durable than everybody around us. And as a result, I think looking at the growth that we've achieved this year, we're up there and everybody else is way behind us. So I'm not worried at all about Jordan's stability, but it's definitely affecting the countries in the region and it's hurting all of us together. Nobody is immune from what's going on in the Middle East. Like I said, Arabs and Israelis are caught in this together. And indirectly, so is the United States.

Charlie Rose: There are those in Israel who say, “look, notwithstanding today's suicide bombing, the likelihood of attacks against Israel are less than they were before Israeli defence forces moved in with the force that they did and isolated President Arafat.”

King Abdullah: For each Palestinian that they killed, wounded, or arrested, they just grew another hundred willing to go to the cause.

Charlie Rose: If you believe the only answer to force as a weapon is more force, than you say you're wrong and will never be enough.

King Abdullah: Because certain people in Israel have been treating this as a security problem. They say it's not a political problem, it's a security problem. So we need to deal with the security problem to have peace. You can't have peace if you're going to enforce security. You need to solve the political problem. When you have peace, you have security, not the other way around.

Charlie Rose: The operative idea out there now is the Saudi initiative. The Saudi initiative says '67 borders, give or take, you know. It talks about the right of return having to do with a UN resolution. What's your vision of what a Palestinian state ought to look like?

King Abdullah: Well, again, I think that if we go back to the last benchmark that Israelis and Palestinians had achieved, we go back to Taba of 1999 and 2000, during the last weeks of the Barak and Clinton administration. There was a fairly understood resolution to Jerusalem. And at that point it was 98 per cent roughly of the Palestinian territories given back to them. I think that's a good place to start.

Charlie Rose: So the Saudi initiative, in a sense, meets what was the last thing that was discussed at Taba?

King Abdullah: Yes.

Charlie Rose: That would be where the future has to be?

King Abdullah: I think that there's no sense of going back to the drawing board. I think what you want to do is go to where people left off. And I know with maybe the present Israeli government that's unacceptable, but I think that taboos are broken and I think people understand the issues much clearer now. So I think Taba, which was where they last end up, is where we should begin from. And, again, I think as we move into whatever the future holds in the next couple of months of having an international conference and bringing people together, we should be very careful on not using too many set terms that might alienate one side from the other. So, United Nations resolutions sometimes are secure enough to bring people together.

Charlie Rose: And that's the hope there, I assume, because there is some opportunity and ambiguity.

King Abdullah: Yes. 242, 338, 1397, Arab peace proposal to the Israelis. So a mixture of those under an American umbrella is probably a good way to start.

Charlie Rose: Will it make a lot of difference if the crown prince, coming from Saudi Arabia, is as active as he is, seemingly saying.

King Abdullah: I think it's fantastic. I'm very proud as a fellow Arab. He's always been a true nationalist for the Arab cause and I think he understood that the Arab world needed to come together. He showed tremendous leadership behind this initiative. And he has our full support and endorsement on this proposal.

Charlie Rose: What do you think happened at Jenin?

King Abdullah: I don't have enough reports. Obviously when Jenin was as bad as it was, Jordan is the only source of humanitarian aid into the West Bank. So all Arab and international supplies were crossing the bridges over the River Jordan from Jordan into the West Bank. Our air force was helicoptering blood supplies into the different cities. We opened up four field hospitals to take care of the wounded. The NGO's and Amnesty International that I had met with in trying to organise relief into the West Bank were telling me some dreadful stories that I think will have to wait. I mean, I was very concerned from what I heard from them on the horrible things that happened to the Palestinian people. But with all these things I think you have to wait until the dust settles. I think that something did happen and it should be investigated.

Charlie Rose: But the UN has said we can't do it because there's no support from the Israelis.

King Abdullah: Is that fair?

Charlie Rose: What do you think?

King Abdullah: No. The United Nations, at the end of the day, represents the entire world. And I'm a great advocate and supporter of the United Nations and if they feel that something should be done.

Charlie Rose: In the end, you're hopeful.

King Abdullah: You have to be. I believe that the immense cycle of violence, I think, has shaken everybody and it's cost everybody dearly in the Middle East. And I think that America…

Charlie Rose: Including the United States. Including Israel. Including…

King Abdullah: Everybody. It costs all of us.

Charlie Rose: The human dimension is…

King Abdullah: And if you don't solve it, it's not going to go away. It's going to happen again and worse. So I have to be optimistic from that point of view that common sense has to prevail. And you have the right people, as in the secretary of state, as in your president, who has the heart to be able to bring peace and stability to the Middle East. So I am optimistic.

Charlie Rose: There – I leave with this – two points. One is this notion of the United States. Is it essential for the United States to step in?

King Abdullah: Critical. Without the United States we're not going to get anywhere. That is a fact.

Charlie Rose: Why is that?

King Abdullah: Because America is the most powerful country in the world. It has the moral authority to be able to bring both sides together. It has the pressure to bear on the international community or work with the international community, to put pressure on the Israelis and Palestinians. Without the Americans, it's a non-starter. The Europeans, the United Nations, Russia, China, the Arab world – we're all in this together. But without the United States, we can't make it work.

Charlie Rose: There are others who say, finally, that as long as you have these two people – Sharon and Arafat – these two combatants who have been contesting with each other for decades, this thing will never be solved. That in the end, some confidence building is necessary and perhaps at some point there will be a change in leadership. And only then.

King Abdullah: Well, if we're going to take that line of argument, that these are two old warriors that are never going to learn and are going to continue to have a go at each other…

Charlie Rose: Warriors.

King Abdullah: How can you build confidence between these people? I think what you have to do is come to the final solution, as I said, using the moral authority and weight of the United States to say to both sides, ''I'm sorry. Enough is enough. This is what's going to happen because this is in the best interest of the Israeli people and the Palestinian people.'' They're not going to build confidence. We know that the chemistry is not there between these two people, so how are we going to expect confidence, interim agreement, a slow build-up to it?

Charlie Rose: Since it's not present there, tell me one more time how you get around that?

King Abdullah: You give the prizes. You say that there will be a Palestinian state and the Arabs will have peace with Israel. And create a series of conferences starting this summer to be able to address that, as we started…

Charlie Rose: And you say – I hear you saying at the beginning of this conversation that if Arafat is not prepared to do that, then you suggest to the Palestinians they should choose another leader. And to the Israeli citizens, you say if your leadership is not prepared to do that, perhaps you should choose another leader.

King Abdullah: It's not up for me to judge who the leader should be. But what I'm saying is that you offer the peoples of Palestine and Israel a way out. And I put it to you that the overwhelming majority are saying enough is enough. We've suffered too much. We want our leaders to get us out of this. If they can't, please, international community, set up a set of circumstances that can achieve that.

Charlie Rose: Your Majesty, thank you for joining us on this programme. Again, it's good to see you.

King Abdullah: Thank you.