Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II

Charlie Rose: Welcome to the broadcast. Tonight from Washington King Abdullah of Jordan. We're in Washington with King Abdullah of Jordan. He is in this city meeting with members of Congress and representatives of the Bush administration. He meets later this week with the president at Camp David. I am pleased to have the king back on this programme to talk about the Middle East, Iraq, and other issues.

Your Majesty, thank you for joining us and allowing us to have this conversation. Tell me where you think the roadmap to peace is and what you will say to President Bush it's necessary to do if you think outside the box.

King Abdullah: Well, obviously there's been a tremendous setback with the cycle of violence back at a high peak again. With the resignation of Mahmoud Abbas, we're back to the drawing board, not that we're back at the beginning of the roadmap because we have no alternative. I think that the roadmap having been sanctioned by the international community is the only way to continue. But having said that, obviously there's a new prime minister now who I believe is capable and sincere, but there is a lag time now of how to get him up and running, coordinating with the Israelis and hopefully with the United States. My worry in the meantime is the status quo remains. More Israelis and Palestinians will lose their lives and there will be more destruction and frustration in the Israeli and Palestinian society. So we're actually here in Washington to think out of the box, as you said, I mean, to throw ideas out and see how we can get the parties back together again.

Charlie Rose: What kind of ideas might do that?

King Abdullah: Well, again I'm leaving that to my discussions with the president. We'd like to see....

Charlie Rose: I'd be pleased for you to have a preview here.

King Abdullah: Again because it's so confusing for everybody and so frustrating, I think-- know -- that there's a sense of tremendous frustration in the United States dealing with the Israelis and Palestinians. They've been there so many times before that there is a sense of why bother. I know that's not the president's intentions. He's always had the right heart to be able to move the process forward. But we have to convince people that there's enough common ground to move forward so we're here to see how do we get Abu Ala engaged by Israelis, Americans and the international community and we need to start from some reference point. So we're going to try to throw out ideas this weekend.

Charlie Rose: Is the opinion in the region in Jordan and elsewhere that the United States has not done enough, that it has not applied enough pressure on Israel?

King Abdullah: There is that unfortunate perception, although I thought it tremendous of the president to come all the way out to the Middle East three or four months ago.

Charlie Rose: He met with you.

King Abdullah: And to give his personal support to the Israelis and the Palestinians at the Aqaba summit to push the process forward. He has been fully supportive and taken that extra mile, so to speak, to give that effort. But there are problems on the ground. So many people are used to throwing the blame and finger pointing I think that that doesn't really alleviate the problem.

Charlie Rose: The Israelis seem to say if an Arafat is back in control and especially if he's in control of the security apparatus, no matter who the prime minister is, that it's a non-starter; that either the Palestinians have to choose between Arafat or a Palestinian state in 2005 as long as Arafat is there, they're not willing to go forward.

King Abdullah: Definitely. I mean Arafat's position with the United States is one that's pretty evident to everybody. The American administration is very hesitant to have anything to do with Arafat.

Charlie Rose: Where does that leave the world?

King Abdullah: Well, it's difficult simply because he is the elected representative of the Palestinian people. He enjoys at the moment a very high level of popularity. So what do you do? And this is an issue that I think we've all spent many hours trying to figure out. The Americans have a very firm position yet there is a leader of the Palestinians that... how do you.

Charlie Rose: That's a description of the reality. The question is, how do you get around that? I mean that is the issue, if Arafat seems to be the problem and the Palestinians are supportive of him....

King Abdullah: Don't forget that the main issue on the ground is to build Palestinian institutions. This is something that we started with Mahmoud Abbas in creating a prime minister and a responsible government, which I believe the overwhelming majority of Palestinians want. Problems on the ground made it so difficult for -- I would think Mahmoud Abbas had the odds stacked up against him before he even started.

Charlie Rose: Doomed to failure?

King Abdullah: He was doomed to failure because of the squabbling, if you will, or the competition inside the Palestinian organisations but also I believe that the Israeli government could have done a lot more to support Mahmoud Abbas.

Charlie Rose: What should they have done?

King Abdullah: Well, they asked a lot of him. He was definitely sincere in moving the process forward and adhering to the roadmap, in trying to curtail the security issues. But at the same time we had an increase of settlements. We had a lot of pressure I know on several occasions Mahmoud Abbas delivered expecting something in return and he was told, well, we want a bit more from you.

Charlie Rose: His release of prisoners and things like that.

King Abdullah: Exactly. So there's only so much that he could have done. I think he was pushed to the limit to the point where he couldn't do any more.

Charlie Rose: On the other hand within the Palestinian community he did not have control of the security forces.

King Abdullah: Well again, I think that that was a tactical mistake because if you want to be able to deal with the process of moving forward, the future of the Palestinians is a government institution that is sort of recognised by all of us in the international community.

Charlie Rose: What will it do if the Israelis build a wall that goes around the settlements that are already in existence on the West Bank?

King Abdullah: I'm so surprised that I think historically haven't we learned that walls have always been a failure and usually at the expense of those that build them.

Charlie Rose: The Berlin Wall being a good example. You're saying to go the Israelis, tear down the wall, number one and you say to the Israelis, as the UN said yesterday, as a UN official said yesterday, the Israelis have to start by withdrawing from all the settlements that are beyond the '67 borders.

King Abdullah: Because putting up the wall is a very short-term aim. I mean you're not solving the problem. The problem at the end of the day that you want to achieve is peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Putting up walls will not bring peoples together. It will keep them separated. Therefore, you're going to have more issues of conflict in the future. What we've been saying as part of the international community and the directives of the president of the United States, an independent Palestinian state by 2005 -- there's a roadmap that spells out pretty clearly what is expected by both sides. On the other hand, the Arab commitment to give Israel everything that they've wanted: An end to the conflict, security, acceptance into the area and agreed solution to the refugees. Everything that Israel has asked or will want from the Arabs is on the table there. That is the bigger picture. Building walls, increasing settlements, the cycle of violence is not going to get us anywhere.

Charlie Rose: The assassination of Hamas leaders will not make a difference do you think? It creates more terrorists than accomplish....

King Abdullah: As do terrorist bombings. Violence begets violence. The overwhelming majority of what we call the silent majority of Israelis and Palestinians are the ones that suffer.

Charlie Rose: What would you do if you were a leader in Israel and your country was facing the kind of attacks that its populous and its citizens sitting in a restaurant, inside a bus, how would you respond to the genuine fear of your citizens?

King Abdullah: Nobody can put themselves in the shoes of Israelis and Palestinians and feel the frustration and the fear, the anger that both sides have suffered. Having said that though, I have felt looking at this problem for the past two or three years that it was so easy to get the leaderships into the trenches. They've got to stick their heads out and see the bigger picture. So there's so much focused on what did you do against me and what I want from you....

Charlie Rose: Action and reaction.

King Abdullah: Yes. As opposed to the final peace.

Charlie Rose: Interesting you say that because the roadmap was an incremental process.

King Abdullah: But the problem with the roadmap, it did not articulate enough to the point where there have to be responsibilities that holds both sides accountable. The mechanism of saying, all right, we want you to do this, whether Israelis or Palestinians, a, b, c and d within a time frame. If not, then you will be held accountable. Maybe this is some of the discussion we'll be having this week. If we are to restart, re-launch the process, there has to be a mechanism that has an action plan that holds Israelis and Palestinians accountable but also hold us Arabs accountable. We have offered everything that Israel wants, hold us accountable to it.

Charlie Rose: What do you mean by hold you accountable? Give me what you have offered and what would be a method of holding you accountable.

King Abdullah: If there's a time line for all parties, let's say the Israelis, the Arabs, and the Palestinians, as things improve on the ground, then there should be more of a commitment to solidifying the relationship between the Israelis and the Arabs as the process moves forward: Whether it is ambassadors, whether it's security issues, whether it is some sort of moral stand by the Arabs to make sure that the Israelis see that the future for them is a positive one. We can look at the Arab proposal and link it to the roadmap so that you feel that it is comprehensive.

Charlie Rose: I mean, some are even now suggesting that an incremental process doesn't work -- that in fact the right idea was a kind of overall process like took place at Camp David and later at Taba, that that kind of process is necessary because incrementally with time you will never get there because somebody will....

King Abdullah: You're going to have to get everybody together anyway to create a Camp David or some sort of summit to agree on the principles. But then you're still going to have to have the incremental approach. We've seen leaders sit around the room agree in principle. When they go back on the ground nothing is being done. By all means bring us together, sit us down, make sure that there is an action plan but once you leave the summit or Camp David as you will, then there has to be a process that holds people accountable.

Charlie Rose: Do you believe that the Sharon government is less responsive to American wishes than you might have imagined? Speak, for example, on the idea of either removing or assassinating Arafat, which the United States and Secretary Powell has said were very much against that and yet the Israelis' cabinet has approved the removal.

King Abdullah: Well, again,....

Charlie Rose: How much pressure can the United States apply?

King Abdullah: That is a question that only the American administration can answer. But I do believe that I think this is what the international community and all of us in the region are hoping to be hard on all parties, equally so.

Charlie Rose: Let me turn it around then. I mean, how much pressure and how much authority do Arab governments have because of the pressure they're willing to use and exert against, say, Hamas, in order to help the Palestinian authority rein them in.

King Abdullah: This is why I think we have to have this comprehensive approach because there is responsibilities and accountability for the Arab countries at the same time. All Arabs want to see a future for the Palestinians and therefore we are going to have to be held accountable for that.

Charlie Rose: Hamas is counterproductive to a future for the Palestinians.

King Abdullah: Exactly.

Charlie Rose: But what are the Arab governments doing to lean on the Hamas and to help Abu Mazen?

King Abdullah: A lot of governments, the majority of governments have leaned on Hamas.

Charlie Rose: Let me shift to Iraq. The president, as you talk to him this weekend, I'm sure will want to revisit the idea that if they are successful in Iraq, they can have a huge impact on the region. In your government, you have been advocating reform. Is that a... is that a successful idea? Is that an idea that Iraq can be a democratising force in the region still alive?

King Abdullah: Absolutely. I mean, I've always thought historically that the centre of gravity in the Middle East throughout the ages has always been Baghdad.

Charlie Rose: Has always been.

King Abdullah: Baghdad. It's a country full of capability, rich resources, very educated people. Given the chance to be pulled back into the international community definitely it will be an exceedingly positive force for the future of the Middle East.

Charlie Rose: Your embassy suffered an attack. The UN suffered an attack. The Shia mosque and a Shia leader suffered an attack and one was assassinated or many were assassinated. What's going wrong?

King Abdullah: Well, again there are different elements in play. Not all those elements are the same sources whether it was the Jordanian embassy or the United Nations building or what happened in the Shia south.

Charlie Rose: Let me take the Jordanian embassy first. Who did it?

King Abdullah: Well, we have two very strong leads. One would be sort of Al Qaeda, Islamic extremists. The other one is another source that we are pursuing. It's too early for us to confirm but there was another element inside Iraq that might have been responsible.

Charlie Rose: A Baathist element or....

King Abdullah: I really can't say at the moment. But we will get to the bottom of that. Whoever it is, we'll be... whoever it is will be held accountable…

Charlie Rose: Do you think they're connected to the people who did the attack against the United Nations or the mosque?

King Abdullah: They were separate. We believe the second track we're following separate from the ones that did the United Nations on the second option.

Charlie Rose: Do they speak to each other or have common purpose?

King Abdullah: There's enough elements inside of Iraq that have some sort of independence. So there's two or three elements that are working there.

Charlie Rose: How large an element is it there? Within Iraq, in terms of... in terms that are determined to oppose coalition forces and the united nations at every step in order to destabilise Iraq and make it a haven for terrorists?

King Abdullah: Well, I think there is a resistance from the sort of pro-Saddam forces. I don't think it's as big as people think they are. There is a problem between Sunni and Shia. There's an influence of the Kurds. And also there are foreign fighters that have crossed the borders.

Charlie Rose: Do you have any sense of a number? Your security forces tell --

King Abdullah: We can't. I mean, they change on a fairly regular basis although securing the borders now are limiting the access of these people coming across but there are several elements at play. It's going to take a while for the dust to settle.

Charlie Rose: What is the problem? In the reconstruction beyond the issue, you know, that they found the country in a rather terrible way as guests on my programme have said to me that the electricity power was not nearly what they expected might be, that sanctions had taken a toll, that the totalitarian regime had taken a huge toll, yet at the same time they've had also had looting and attacks against public institutions after the fact. But it doesn't seem to be going well and the Iraqi people are saying things are worse than they were before the war, and we don't have any idea of what the American intention is, we don't know what the plan is, and we can't find out.

King Abdullah: I think as you touched upon, I think part of the problem is the message is not being delivered clearly to the different sectarian groups inside of Iraq. Nobody sees beyond tomorrow. Having said that though I think that where Iraq was at the end of the war to where we are today is a lot better. There's still tremendous work that needs to be done in infrastructure which in itself brings security to people. A lot of people are terrified of the future because they don't know what it will bring. Some people still believe that Saddam is active and will come back, that there are other powers at play that don't give them the sense of comfort that tomorrow will be a better day. It's going to take some time for the dust to settle. And for the coalition forces to become more organised. But again I've seen an improvement but having said that, as I alluded to before there's a lot of elements inside of Iraq that are competing inside of each other. As you know there's the Kurds, the Sunnis and the Shia. There are elements in those that are trying to create inter-Iraqi....

Charlie Rose: Is there fear on your part that Iraq may split up into those....

King Abdullah: That's always been the fear. I think we discussed this over a year ago. The worst case scenario is that what we have in Iraq leads to a civil war. I just came back from Tehran and speaking to the Iranians. I think as an example all of us in the area see the tremendous danger of that happening. And....

Charlie Rose: So the Iranians are as worried about that happening even though the Iranians are Shia as well. They're worried about that happening. They have no grand intentions for Iraq themselves - and a similar kind of government --

King Abdullah: I think it's very difficult for countries in the area not to have a strategic interest in Iraq. But I think with us there's an agreement that the break-up of Iraq would be a tremendous problem for all of us. And funny enough with President Khatami... his concern about conflicts would be disastrous --

Charlie Rose: Coalition forces -- a lot of the terrorists or Al Qaeda or... are coming across the border from Iran into Iraq.

King Abdullah: Al Qaeda is a different issue because ideology is as much of a danger to the majority of Muslims as they are to Shia Muslims. There is a common ground. Those that perpetrated 9/11 are extremists as much as a threat to Iran does to....

Charlie Rose: Some of them are still coming across the borders.

King Abdullah: From my discussions in Tehran, they were extremely keen to put a stop... I mean, I can't confirm that that is the case.

Charlie Rose: It is in their interest to stop it because they don't want to see Iraq destabilised.

King Abdullah: Exactly.

Charlie Rose: They want to see a democratisation.

King Abdullah: I would imagine that they would like to see a Shia Iraq but there's enough common ground I believe there that we can work with. I mean, they see the destabilisation, the ethnic conflict, Shia on Shia, Sunni on Shia being disastrous for all of us. There's enough there for us to agree upon and work together on.

Charlie Rose: Do you …President Hatami's announcement yesterday that they have no intention to build a bomb. They do not want a bomb and that their nuclear intentions are totally peaceful?

King Abdullah: Well, I find him a very sincere and straightforward man. I do believe his sincerity. We had long discussions on a programme in Tehran. He was very straightforward and very honest.

Charlie Rose: Which means you accept....

King Abdullah: I accepted his position.

Charlie Rose: His truthfulness which is they don't have it. Could they have it without him knowing about it?

King Abdullah: All is possible. Again, this is the first visit in 25 years to Tehran. So we're getting to know each other. Having said that, I think it was a very successful visit.

Charlie Rose: Speaking of that, tell me what's at the core of anti-Americanism in the region.

King Abdullah: Israel, Palestine.

Charlie Rose: Is it really, is that more than Iraq?

King Abdullah: Far more.

Charlie Rose: That more than America doesn't seem to listen and thinks it can do whatever it wants to do, is willing... the different arguments are made, that the core is....

King Abdullah: Is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Charlie Rose: If that went away, anti-Americanism for the most part would go away, we'd be a hero in the region if somehow we could....

King Abdullah: Solve the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

Charlie Rose: No doubt about that?

King Abdullah: The depth... we were at the international, sorry, the World Economic Forum in Davos about seven or eight months ago. The one before in Switzerland. There was a poll given to a mixed audience. Half Arab and half Westerners. What was most important? There was a poll. All the Europeans said democracy, freedom. Ninety-nine per cent of all the Arabs said Palestine. Any time you ask an Arab what is it inside your heart that affects you most, Palestine. I think that is the lack of understanding that people misinterpret in the West, how deep that is ingrained in people. Solve that problem and you've solved 90 per cent of the issues out there. It allows us a chance for the Middle East to be able to move forward.

Charlie Rose: But that problem does not have anything to do with the Al Qaeda problem, does it?

King Abdullah: Yes, because the people....

Charlie Rose: The Al Qaeda problem....

King Abdullah: Extremists use the Palestinian problem as their recruiting ground. It is how they bring people in -- that the Palestinians are suffering, that the Israelis are out to destroy them. You remove that soap box, that number-one grandstand that they have and the extremists will only have one leg to stand on.

Charlie Rose: Do you believe that message is deeply understood by the Bush administration, that in fact they want to get at the core of anti-Americanism, solve, do whatever you can to play a positive role....

King Abdullah: The president fully understands that. Again, he's always surprised me with the ability to feel what the people are feeling. He understands the human dimension of it.

Charlie Rose: The people of the region.

King Abdullah: Of the region.

Charlie Rose: No doubt about it in your mind that the president gets it with respect....

King Abdullah: He gets it 100 per cent, from day one that I sat with him, I felt that right away.

Charlie Rose: And he's done everything he could in your judgment?

King Abdullah: Yes.

Charlie Rose: No question?

King Abdullah: Yes. Again, it's not for me really to be able to take this apart. I know where the president's intentions were and have been in his heart and his directives -- now how that filters down may be up for discussion. But he is committed and from his heart he wants to have a Palestinian state. He wants to have a future for the Israelis and the Palestinians and he wants to solve the problem. He will expend that extra time to get it done. But we have to create the atmosphere for him to succeed.

Charlie Rose: And the action plan.

King Abdullah: Yes.

Charlie Rose: Do you think a more hands-on involvement by the president himself would make a difference?

King Abdullah: He's been extremely hands on. I mean to take the time to come to sit down with the Saudis and the Egyptians and Bahrainis.

Charlie Rose: After that he might say look I made the best effort I could make and look what happened. The violence continued. Hamas committed atrocities and suicide bombings and the Israelis responded.

King Abdullah: We've all been burnt. Again in Aqaba I think I did mention that, look, as we start a process, the extremists are going to have another go. But it's going to take strong fortitude to make sure that we don't give up. Now the president is going to step in and take action when he has a mechanism that makes sense. Sort of have to take a couple of steps back but as long as we can get something that makes sense, that the president can identify, yes, this will work, I mean he's not going to spare energy on something that's not going to work out. But when he sees that there is a possibility of moving forward I'm convinced that....

Charlie Rose: He's convinced he's prepared to do everything that, say, President Clinton was prepared to do.

King Abdullah: Yes.

Charlie Rose: Back to Iraq, this administration believes this is the battle ground in the war against terrorism. Are they right?

King Abdullah: To an extent.

Charlie Rose: The battleground is in Iraq today.

King Abdullah: There is a problem with terrorism in Iraq, yes. But the core battle is still the Israeli-Palestinian one. This is what we've been trying for many years to explain to our friends in the West. You solve that problem, that is the quickest way that you will take the extremists down.

Charlie Rose: The reconstruction....

King Abdullah: You see the terrorists in Iraq because they can't fight inside Israel or the Palestinians, they'll find somewhere else to fight whether it's Afghanistan or Iraq. Solve the Palestinian-Israeli problem and we all have a chance at the future in the Middle East.

Charlie Rose: Iraq -- one more time about Iraq. There is much talk about the UN role. What should be the UN role and should the United States, with all the problems of making a transition from a dictatorship to a democracy and the governing council in place and a cabinet in place, what should the United States do and what should it agree to with respect to a UN role in your judgment?

King Abdullah: Well, the president has been I think very straightforward in wanting to have an engagement with the United Nations. How we get there obviously is, as I think you and I talked previously, the transition, it can't be done as quickly as people would wish. They're going to have to be some building blocks to make the transition or increasing the coalition or whatever you want to call it in Iraq feasible. It's not something that you can turn on switch on and the UN is alongside the Americans tomorrow. It will take a lot of homework.

Charlie Rose: And a lot of time?

King Abdullah: From practical experiences as an ex-soldier, yeah, it will take some time.

Charlie Rose: Look at Kosovo. It's taken a long time.

King Abdullah: Yeah.

Charlie Rose: When you....

King Abdullah: I mean, we would all wish it to be quicker. But I think practicality is on the ground make it....

Charlie Rose: You're in the region, you're next door. When people want to go to Baghdad they go through Jordan or Kuwait. You're next door. You don't want to send Jordanian troops because you think what?

King Abdullah: Well, I think from purely the high moral ground that I think we all have to take in this. All countries that surround Iraq have an agenda. They have a strategic interest with Iraq. So does that make us the right people to go in with troops? No, because we would have an agenda. If you want to send troops, send troops that have no connection to Iraq so that you are there as a balanced force, there for the good of Iraqis. Try as people will, I am fully supportive of the high moral standards of our soldiers but it is so easy to sort of, you know, get closer to the Iraqi community to try and push Iraq to be more pro Jordan, for example, and so would Syria, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, ... Kuwait there's a lot of benefit of having a special relationship. We'll help on humanitarian but sending troops we're not the right people for it.

Charlie Rose: You're an old soldier, a former soldier. Do they need, no your judgment, as a former military man and now king of Jordan, do they need more boots on the ground to create security in order to do the things that are necessary in Iraq?

King Abdullah: They need, yes, I believe they do need more boots on the ground but what they also need is more Iraqi boots on the ground. There is a programme of ... accelerating the training of policemen and the Iraqi military but that will take some time. To give security because there's a lot of criminal activity throughout Iraq you will have to have more troops. Again you want to make that transition of foreign forces to Iraqi forces as quickly as possible.

Charlie Rose: A lot of people are saying this too. They look at some of the communications on television, Al Jazeera and other places and they wonder why there's not more celebration, not sort of congratulating the Americans as liberators but more debate in the Arab world about the removal of Saddam.

King Abdullah: The press would always like to have a gory story as opposed to a good one. You want to get viewers. There's so many wonderful stories in... inside of Iraq but it's much more in the minds of some of the press to show dead bodies unfortunately.

Charlie Rose: That's what the administration is saying. The administration is saying and some reporters Tom Friedman on this programme last night, who just returned, said that things are going better than we imagined but not as good as they should be.

King Abdullah: I think that's an accurate assessment. Again, the situation in Iraq is very, very difficult. But what you tend to see sometimes on the press makes the picture a bit worse. Not that it's saying that the situation is good. But the perception of images on television are limited to certain parts of Iraq. There's a lot of success stories there.

Charlie Rose: Does this feed in any way the notion that American foreign polity is anti-Islamic?

King Abdullah: This is the perception on the ground because there's enough forces out there that would like to antagonise and so....

Charlie Rose: To create that....

King Abdullah: To create that sense of feeling of that this is a battle between East and West, between America and the Arabs.

Charlie Rose: What do you say to those people who are trying to do that as a Muslim....

King Abdullah: I mean, as a Muslim or and you as a Christian, I mean they're the enemy for all of us. To create an East-West conflict, to create a conflict between Islam and Christianity. This is what Osama Bin Laden tried to do in September 11. He wasn't actually going... I mean US was sort of a secondary target. His main struggle…the rest of us....

Charlie Rose: Especially Saudi Arabia.

King Abdullah: Exactly.

Charlie Rose: What do you fear for your country and your rule?

King Abdullah: I don't fear for the future of my country. I'm confident that Jordan will achieve and make itself a special niche in the world. The people are extremely capable. We have the possibility of reaching the stars. But as long as the Israeli- Palestinian conflict continues, we can't move along with our lives. The whole area, when we're looking at freedoms, at reform, at economy, at getting food on the table, you can never do that when you have such a critical crisis happening in the region. So we're looking at development. We want a better world for our young. Fifty per cent of the Middle East is under the age of 18. We have a young Middle East growing up. There's an opportunity here to bring them into what the 21st century promises, to youth all over the world. But as long as we have this con flick, as long as we have suspicion, hatred and frustration, we personally in Jordan and I can speak on behalf of the other Arab countries, will never be able to get ourselves out of the hole that the Middle East has been in for the past 50 years.

Charlie Rose: And the Jordanian government and the government in Egypt and the government in Saudi Arabia and the government in Bahrain are of one mind about that.

King Abdullah: Absolutely. Every single Arab country. I mean going back to the Arab proposal, every country signed on including Iraq under Saddam.

Charlie Rose: This was when the Arab League met in Beirut.

King Abdullah: Exactly. Even through all these problems we've had none of the Arab countries have backed down from the initiative.

Charlie Rose: Let me come back to two issues. Number one, the issue... the Americans seem, the United States, the Bush administration, the president, the secretary of defence and the secretary of state, seem to believe that the central issue for America-- America-- is the battle against terrorism.

King Abdullah: Yes.

Charlie Rose: They seem to define that principally most importantly as a battle against Al Qaeda and Jihad and they see what's happening between Israelis and Palestinians as simply a sub-set of that.

King Abdullah: No.

Charlie Rose: Are you questioning whether my proposal... my notion is wrong or are you saying simply... in other words, I'm asking... that's what the administration seems to me to feel. Are you saying that's not what they feel with respect to conversations you have?

King Abdullah: The conversations that I have, they understand the core issue of the Israelis, Palestinians being the recruiting ground for extremists and being the course that allows people like Osama Bin Laden to have such a platform to bring hatred to have a policy of conflict with inside of Islam and out.

Charlie Rose: What do you think Hamas wants? Do they want to see Israel survive or... I mean, you know more about the conflict than most. What do you think they want?

King Abdullah: Well, the sadness of the situation from whatever view that you have, whether pro-Israeli, pro-Palestinian, pro-Arab, there will never be a greater Israel. There will not be a greater Palestine because the world doesn't work that way. The Israelis are there to stay, whether people like it or not in our part of the world and the Palestinian s are there to stay whether some Israelis like it or not. The quicker people begin to realise that, then they'll understand that violence is not the way to achieving their aims. Dialogue, peace. People will have to live in harmony. Otherwise, there's going to be a cycle of violence that will take us through the decades. Organisations such as Hamas and others feel that violence is the way of liberating Palestine. It doesn't work. All it does is cost the lives of innocent Palestinians and Israelis, and the cycle of violence continues dialogue is the only way to bring people together.

Charlie Rose: And Hamas seemed to be at one point prepared to go there. There was a lull in the violence. And then it erupted again.

King Abdullah: Well, listen in every organisation on every side of the conflict there are maybe a core, the majority that will accept for dialogue, but even in an extremist organisation, you're going to have extremists.

Charlie Rose: In the end, a two- state solution is the only solution.

King Abdullah: Yes, Sir. I mean, what other alternative? If we want to have peace, I mean, this is my discussions I've had with previous Israeli prime ministers. I mean the peace for the Israelis is not to the Jordan River or to the Golan Heights or to the Sinai in Egypt. I presume Israelis will want to feel they're integrated into in the neighbourhood. I mean that is the type of peace I would imagine Israelis want. They do not want a peace where they step out of the door of their house and worry whether they'll be able to get their kids to school or whether they can go to a restaurant. I would imagine that they would want to be integrated into the neighbourhood. Well, that comes at a price because the Palestinians also have their aspirations and their desire for a future.

Charlie Rose: Thank you. Great to see you again. Thank you very much. His Majesty, King Abdullah of Jordan.